Wednesdays With Watson: Faith & Trauma Amy Watson- PTSD Patient-Trauma Survivor

Holding Onto Faith Through Trauma: Tina Ivey’s Journey of Healing and Hope

• Amy Watson: Trauma Survivor, Hope Carrier, Precious Daughter Of The Most High God • Season 6 • Episode 11

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When the chorus of "Jesus Loves Me" becomes more than a hymn—when it becomes a lifeline—we're reminded of the profound impact faith can have, especially when faced with life's harshest realities. Our guest, Tina Ivy, bears witness to this truth, opening up about the intersection of faith and trauma with a candidness that is both harrowing and hopeful. Her narrative, marked by childhood abuse and a complex journey towards healing, challenges us to consider the ways in which we cling to faith in moments when the world seems to forsake us.

As we navigate through Tina's experiences, from the abusive shadows of her past to the sanctuary of her foster family's church, we are privy to an intimate exploration of the human spirit. Her story unfolds, revealing how deeply personal trauma can warp our self-perception and the paths we take to cope. Yet, the undercurrent of hope, embodied in her constant return to the belief in a loving God, offers a beacon of light for anyone who has felt lost in the darkness. Tina's testament is not just one of resilience, but also of the incredible capacity for faith to guide us toward redemption and self-discovery.

Our conversation culminates in a poignant reflection on forgiveness, the embracing of faith by those we least expect, and the unwavering conviction that we are all unconditionally loved by God. Tina's reconciliation with her father and the transformative nature of her faith remind us that even in the depths of despair, there is potential for profound change. Her story, chronicled in "Better Than I Should Be," serves not only as an inspiration but as an invitation—to find solace in faith, to seek understanding, and to remember that no matter our past, we are seen, known, heard, and valued.

You ARE:
SEEN KNOWN HEARD LOVED VALUED

Speaker 1:

You have to have some kind of hope, because if you don't, then you just fall into despair and then it's like, once you get to that point, it's like anything goes.

Speaker 3:

Okay, guys, we are continuing, as we are sitting in the intersection of faith and trauma. We are continuing our series telling stories, highlighting stories of hope of those people who have walked the crooked roads of pain, despair and trauma. Today, I have with me author Tina Ivy, who is here to share with us her story of faith and her faith journey. We'll talk a little bit more about her book and we will talk about where she is today and her faith journey, given everything that she has been through. So, tina, welcome to the Wednesdays with Watson Podcasts.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for having me Happy to be here.

Speaker 3:

Like many people that I interview, we have had to reschedule this quite a few times, so thank you for your patience on that.

Speaker 3:

But, tina, we are in a season here on the Wednesdays with Watson Podcasts, where we really want to know and, more importantly, we really want other people to know that there are so many others out there walking these dark roads, having dark nights of the soul, struggling with their faith.

Speaker 3:

Some walk away, some stay, and so we are just parking this podcast at the intersection of faith and trauma, because I do believe that it's an important intersection. And so, before we start in terms of talking about your story and the things that you've been through, I'm opening up the interviews by asking everybody the same question, because we are basing this season of our podcast on Hebrews, chapter 11, where the Bible says without faith that it is impossible to please him. And, of course, then we get the Hebrews 11 Hall of Fame Faith by Faith Isaac, by Faith Jacob Abraham. And so I'm asking everybody the same question, and the answers have been really, really edifying to, not only to me, but to our listeners. And so my first question to you, as we enter into this just conversation between two friends, is what does faith mean to you?

Speaker 1:

Faith means having a trust and a belief in something higher than me, my creator, and believing that he really does love me enough to want the best for me, and then growing up. If you ever grew up in the church, you always seen Jesus love me.

Speaker 3:

And.

Speaker 1:

I sang that from the time I was a little kid and I think that that just kind of stuck with me throughout my life. It's like, no matter what happened, that song would just repeat in my head and I just held on to that belief. So I think that's what faith is for me.

Speaker 3:

Love that. I love that there's a new book out. Ironically, you wouldn't really wouldn't expect this author, savannah Guthrie, who, from the Today Show, she's written a new book and it's called what God Does, and the whole book is based on what God Does is Love Us.

Speaker 1:

I had to check that out.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's, and I'm not endorsing it because I've only read two chapters of it, but so far so good. But but but you just brought up something. So you kind of unearthed something in my own heart when you said, you know, faith means that I'm trusting in something higher, but but that Jesus loves me. And I know your story, I know what you're getting ready to tell everybody and so. So that is, we're going to come back to that, because how you can sit across this, this Zoom interview with me and say Jesus loves me as nothing short of miraculous and so let's talk about that. So you're, you did grow up in the church and so talk to talk to us a little bit about that and what your family dynamics look like. This is the part where I just kind of open the mic and I I want you to share as much or as little of of your trauma, part of your story, before we talk about how faith impacted it.

Speaker 1:

Okay, as far as my beginning in church, I do remember as a little kid is far back as three. My mom would send me and my brother to church, we would go to vacation Bible school, but when I really started believing in Jesus was when I ended up going to my foster family, but I'll get to that in just a second. So my family dynamics, it was just me, my mom, my dad, and I have an older brother. To me everything seemed normal, we did things together, we go to the movies, so to me everything was typical, except for there were things happening on the backside and so I had this secret kind of felt kind of like a double life as a child. When you're told not to say anything, that's when you kind of realize that maybe it's not right, because as a kid sometimes you don't know what's right and what's wrong, especially when it comes from a parent. You are supposed to do what they tell you to do. But being that, it was like a hush-hush thing then that kind of like, hey, obviously this is something that shouldn't be happening. But I was, I guess, playing with some kids in the neighborhood and I guess I did something inappropriate and one of the parents saw it and they ended up calling Child Protective Services and reporting it. So around nine, 10 years old, the police ended up coming to the house and I didn't see my dad anymore after that because they ended up arresting him and we had to go through a court case and he ended up doing seven and a half years.

Speaker 1:

During that seven and a half years, I mean there was a lot of stuff that went on during that too, even with him being gone. But I ended up going into foster care or I can't remember if it was like three to six months. So I went to foster care and the people that I will with they were in church. Every time the doors were open, I mean, we were at church. That's when I really came to know Jesus. I guess you could say that's when I really gave my heart to Jesus at that time. So when I ended up coming home, I continued that throughout my teenage years, you know, I ended up going into church and that was really what kept me, because I put a lot of focus into that, just to just for my own sanity, you know.

Speaker 3:

So one question I have for you, and I know that listeners are also thinking. So we could, we could all ascertain what happened, right? So so your dad, the jail for something he did to you, and so first of all I want to say to you I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Speaker 3:

There. There aren't words for situations like that. You know, being a sexual abuse survivor myself, I understand all the things that happened in puberty and happened. You know all of the things, but what I can't understand and what God has not given me grace to understand is it was not a family member. It certainly wasn't my dad. None of the people that that harm me were related to me, and so I'm wondering. So you went into foster care, which it sounds very similar to me. I went into foster care as my pastor and his and his wife and family, and so it was a good thing. I had a good foster care experience.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, I did too.

Speaker 3:

Before going to the, before going to the children's home, tell me where your, tell me where your mom was during all of this.

Speaker 1:

She was still there. You have to understand my mother, to kind of understand her position and everything. My dad was the only person that she really knew and he took care of her. They've known each other since they were 16 and got married like shortly after, and so my dad's family was the family that we hung around. So that was like the core of our group. She had a big family on her side, but she didn't. We would go see them every once in a while, but my grandparents passed away when I was like four or five, so that kind of disconnected us from that side of the family. So my dad's side was really the core of everything that she knew. So she was really kind of passive about everything. I'm not really sure if in the beginning she believed it or not, but she would come see me at foster care. She was like really really, really upset when they said I had to go into foster care. That's pretty much where she was.

Speaker 3:

Gotcha and very, very similar to my own mom. She was also very, very passive. I don't know that she ever told me that she believed me. Like I watched my friends now, tina, and you might be the same I watched my friends now parent right, and it is so foreign to me that these moms would move heaven in her to make sure that their kids are okay, like they would take bullets for them, and all of that because that was not my experience with my mom. I was not loved by my mom. Well, I think she loved me. Do you feel similarly in that regard? Talk to me about how. So your dad is one thing. You got, the two people that brought you into this world and that should care about you the most. Your dad harms you greatly, and so did your mom, and if you don't realize that, you need to hear that from me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I do realize that and I've told other people and it's kind of weird to me because I know a lot of people when they experience sexual abuse, whether it's from a family member or anybody else, they think that it's a violent, you know, physical abuse and sexual abuse. That wasn't the case in my situation. My dad was really nice, he took care of the family and so it didn't really to me hit like when I was older. It's like it's kind of weird because when you think about that stuff, you think about all the physical and like you know, hard stuff and it's like my dad wasn't ever like that and even when he came home it was like whatever he could do for the kids he would do it, you know. So he always tried to take care of us.

Speaker 1:

So I don't know if he had a weird perception of what it means to love somebody and I'm like you don't love this person the way you're supposed to love your wife, and I think I hit on that in my book also. So, yeah, I think just in my situation and how that was, I don't feel like they didn't love me or my mom, and I know my mom loved all of us and I know that she's told me that she went through some similar stuff, not by like her dad, but somebody else, so I think that kind of also played into it. But yeah, I know both my parents loved me, whether even though my dad had a weird like sick kind of way of showing it. Yeah, I have no doubt that my parents loved me.

Speaker 3:

And I love that. And look, I don't have any doubt that my mom loved me. I didn't know my dad really well. I just think that they that my mom in particular was super broken, right, she did not have a faith of. She grew up kind of in an affluent family where they went to church on Sunday. They were Christmas and Easter people, you know, and I know that she loved me too. And there are people out there listening to us that are confused by what we're saying but yet at the same time, when they laid their head down at night, they're thinking the same thing, like, because we are built. As I'm pursuing my doctorate right now, I'm actually in a class for adolescent and child psychology and it is actually a coping mechanism that has taught two children who have been abused that they actually reframe that. In your case, tina, my dad abused me. I'm a survivor of incest. They reframe that in that. Okay, let's talk about we're not saying it's okay to the child, right? It's not okay with them.

Speaker 3:

But we try to reframe the trauma in that we can say so. Let me. It's easier for me to give you my example. So my mom left me for my last abuser and I went to church and told somebody and she abandoned me. I was removed from her for like seven or 10 days. They told her, hey, if you make him go, she can come back. And I was so excited because she had finally chosen me. And so they take me back to the house and there's a note on the door that says gone to get married, mom. And she literally left me to marry this man who got me taken from her.

Speaker 3:

And later, when I ended up at the children's home, these people, without any training, kind of helped reframe that trauma for me and so much as, like they said to me, amy, she probably knew that you were gonna be better off with somebody else if she left, and so they tried to reframe it for me. And that was very helpful for me, because I think it's one of the reasons why I don't think I was ever bitter at her, because they helped me understand her brokenness and that it had nothing to do with me and that, yes, I had to live the rest of my life with some of the consequences of her choices. But, like you, I know she loved me in her own way, and so I'm wondering if you had that experience with any counselors or anybody like that to somebody that tried to reframe the abuse from your dad. And Cess is a different bear. It's one of the worst ones on the scale. I'll be honest with you.

Speaker 1:

I think most of mine came from just being in the church and my growing relationship with God. And the Bible tells us that we're supposed to honor our parents and it doesn't say honor your parents if they do this or if they do that. Whatever I go through doesn't mean that I have to. I wouldn't tell anybody you have to endure all this stuff. Yes, obviously, if something's happening you need to let somebody know, get out of that situation. But I'm just talking about as far as having that innate love for my parents. I think that's something that God gives us, because I've even witnessed that, like in my daughter's life, she loves her dad. She hates what he's doing and him not being in her life and choosing other things over her, but it doesn't mean that she doesn't love him, and I think that's the same thing with me. It's like if I'm gonna live the Bible, I have to live it all. I can't just pick and choose what I wanna do.

Speaker 3:

Wow, if I'm going to believe the Bible, I have to live it all. I could not have said that better myself. We can't take verses like Ephesians 4.32, out of the Bible, where the Bible says be tender heart of compassion, forgiving one another even as Christ is forgiven you and what you bring up is such an interesting point. And people and I say this all the time I know that there are listeners of the Wednesdays with Watson Podcasts that are in dark rooms with earbuds in their ears, and so that's you and you've been abused by a parent and you still love them. You need to understand that's the way God built you. Now, how you decide to navigate that relationship moving forward is something entirely different. The last podcast episode, tina, that I dropped, the one right before this one, because I went from child abuse to domestic abuse and how I still love my ex-husband, who is not on this planet anymore, and I think it's for reasons like you said. We can't take it out of the Bible. But what I do want to as, just as a cautionary tale, if you're listening to this and you're saying, hey Tina, hey Amy, you don't understand.

Speaker 3:

I endured unbelievable abuse and we don't compare traumas on this podcast because we're just not. That's not what we do. Trauma is trauma, because I do agree with you, tina we can't take the honor, your father and your mother out of the Bible. What that looks like is altogether different and probably needs some professional help, because what other choice do we have? Right, like you could be, or I could be super, super bitter and angry about what has happened to us and going. I am not honoring them. They don't deserve my honor, they don't honor my, they don't deserve my respect. We could do that, but we're still going to have that and you just mentioned it that an eight longing for the people that brought us on this planet. A lot of people don't understand why adoptive kids have such a hard time. They get into great families, but by the time they turn 18, one of the first things they want to do is find their biological family.

Speaker 3:

Because that's how God made us, and so let's continue your story. So that happened, so your dad spent seven and a half years in jail. You go back to your mom. What does life look like then, in terms of going to church and a relationship, or your relationship with faith?

Speaker 1:

So I spent a lot of time in church. I tried to make sure that that was like priority for me During those years. I still had some abuse going on from other people so it never really stopped for me. So I was having to try to navigate all that and try to go to church and do what was right, you know, but as a kid kind of seeing that my dad was already in prison, you know I didn't want to go through all that stuff all over again, you know, and I just it's. It's it's hard to come out and tell people what's going on.

Speaker 3:

Shame, not not properly shame, right, but there's right, there's a lot of shame, and so our stories are very similar. Yeah, so so so the abuse continued. You kept going to church.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

I wonder if your experience was kind of like mine, and so I kept going to church Dude every time the door was open.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I mean, if they it was.

Speaker 3:

It was Sunday morning, sunday night, wednesday night, thursday night, friday night, youth group, I think revival. Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 1:

Revival.

Speaker 3:

Revival for sure. And I think they thought if they just kind of kept us busy and, you know, and looking towards something decent that we'd all say I'll trouble. So same thing, yeah, same thing I was. I'm holding both of these things together, like I'm going to church and I'm learning songs like I wish I could sing or I would sing it. Jesus loves me. I'm learning songs.

Speaker 3:

Like you know, there was a song that we used to sing called obedience. Obedience is the very best way to show that you believe. And so it was so conflicting for me because what was happening to me did not match up with this God that I was being taught about, like I was being taught about a good God and a just God and and a God that would take care of me and a God that would never leave me and a God that would never forsake me. But yet, when I left those, the confines of that church or the Christian school that was attached to it, I was felt like I was out there for the wolves and I was, and many of them came for the taking Sounds like the same, as true to you, and I too didn't tell anybody, because I don't, because there's shame in it and kids think it's their fault. And when you get of a certain age, all of a sudden, things are really confusing to you if you're being abused right.

Speaker 1:

Right, right.

Speaker 3:

On top of that, you're going. I was going to church and and this is a directed question for you I was going to church. They were teaching us about sexual purity. I was being abused. That created a monster inside of me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, how about you?

Speaker 1:

Definitely yeah, and I write quite a bit about that in my book, about my high school boyfriend, jamie, and being in church. I was like no, I can't have sex, even though you know the abuse was happening. I had that choice in that situation. And then I would go through periods of it's happening to me, you know why not just do it, you know. And then you know we would have sex for a couple of months and then I'd be like I go to church, I shouldn't be doing this, and I'm like no, we're not doing anything. So for a few months we don't have sex. And then it's like you know what? It's happening anyway. Why not, why not? You know? So it was very conflicting for me as far as the purity thing. It's like it's already happening. I might as well do it. And then it's like, no, you have a choice in this situation, don't do it, you know. So yeah, I think. I think it's.

Speaker 3:

I think this is so important to highlight because even in 2024, this is still happening, and you said something there and that, when you were just talking, that I think resides with a lot of trauma survivors, particularly those with what we call interpersonal trauma, so not traumas that happen at school or so not mass traumas, but traumas that happen to our person. Okay, and sexual abuse is probably at the pinnacle of what we call interpersonal trauma. That then displays itself in many people not all people in post-traumatic stress disorder, which it did me, but there there are people listening to this that will really resonate with this. I, for a long time, even even up until when I was talking to people about my story when I was 35 years old, I had determined somewhere along the line that I was just a throwaway kid and because of what was happening to me, it didn't matter. Now, I did not, I did not go the route that you did, for various and asundry reasons, operate. I just I did not. I was able to not do that, but but I felt like the rest of me was not worth anything, and so I I still was learning about this good God, this faithful God, and trying to please him in some ways Thinking that maybe if I was a good enough kid, a good enough girl, that he would make all of the abuse stop. And he did not do that. And so I just put my head down and decided just everybody, come, take it, because I'm ruined. I am, as I'm, just a ruined human being. I'm, nobody wants me, I'm a throwaway kid. So everybody come, put all your stuff on me.

Speaker 3:

And I live that way for a long time, and even today, tina, I will tell you that I have to, that I struggle and this is going to also be another directive question that you even today, I struggle with my value as a human being, like do I deserve to be drinking water? Do I deserve happiness? Do I do I deserve freedom? Do I deserve joy? Do I deserve all of those things? And my baseline is no, because as children, we were taught what our value was, and it was like I'm just here for somebody to take what they want from me. And so I, before I ask you if you feel similarly, I want the listeners out there to know that that is very normal to feel like you are not worthy, to feel like you are a throwaway kid and to even be angry at God, your creator, because he created you and so trying to hold both of those together. How am I valuable? And all these people are hurting me and a loving God is just kind of there and fill in the blank.

Speaker 3:

But did you ever feel like you know what everybody do, what you want? Because the gig is up?

Speaker 1:

I didn't ever go that route as far as like promiscuity and all that stuff. Yeah, I had issues with self-esteem and, just yeah, feeling the way that you did, you know, devalued or whatever. But I was also in fight mode because I got married twice and I have two children and I didn't really have time to worry about how I felt and I knew I couldn't have a pity party. I knew I had to get up and I had to perform and I had to get things done to make sure my kids were good. I still had the self-esteem issues. I gained a lot of weight when I was pregnant with Tanner and then just from trauma stuff and just comfort food was like my thing, you know, and so I think instead of going like that route, the route of sex being something to comfort me, it was more like oh yeah, let me go over here and eat this pie, you know.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And people have different things that they go to, and I think mine was more that route.

Speaker 3:

Well, I was just getting ready to highlight that. I am so glad you brought that up, because, while I didn't, I also didn't go the route of promiscuity I went. So for me, my coping mechanism, my version of your food or some people's version of promiscuity, was perform, perform, perform, perform, don't stop, don't stop, because I knew if I stopped, the house of cards that was so delicately built was going to come crashing down. And that happened for me. Lots of new listeners here on the Wednesdays with lots of podcasts, and so and I don't even know if you know this, but after my last trauma when I left my abuser, my domestic violence marriage I had, about a year before I completely had a nervous breakdown because I had put my head down. God is good, god is faithful, god has got me and all of that was true. But God does not require us to put our heads in the sand and pretend like these things never happen and not get help. And now more than ever, I just have this passion to end up in my belly. That and I said this to my counselor the other day and it just kind of came out of nowhere. But this is as I am pursuing this doctorate degree and pursuing what the Lord wants me to do in the community as he uses my story.

Speaker 3:

I said to my counselor. I said we have got to treat the whole body from head to toe, with the whole body meaning the body of Christ, and so as churches, if you're a youth pastor, anybody in charge of kids, you are listening to two people who are going to church and were actively being abused, and so we've got to fix that. So the other thing, tina, that I want to mention to you, or ask you actually, is so you, your dad, went to prison and we'll talk about any relationship you might have with him later but your dad went to prison. You went back with your mom, you went to church, you were continuing to be abused. You got married, had kids I get and then went into go mode because you had kids, because you didn't have a choice to do anything other than that. But talk to us about either marriage, because I believe domestic violence is also in your story, right?

Speaker 1:

Correct.

Speaker 1:

The domestic violence wasn't in my first marriage. That was a very short marriage. I was definitely in love with him. But the domestic violence came from the second marriage, which kind of mirrored the first marriage, because my first husband did have a drug problem that I didn't find out really about until after we were married. So that was kind of part of the demise for the first marriage. And so then the second marriage pretty much the same thing.

Speaker 1:

But this is a guy that I had dated when I was 15. It was like that first teenage love and he comes back in the picture. So we start dating. I ended up getting pregnant with my daughter and I was reluctant to get married, but he was insistent about getting married. So we ended up getting married and not shortly after that, like within months, he started doing drugs again because I had told him when we were dating. I was like have you ever done hard drugs? I said, if you have, we're not, I'm not dating you. He's like I said anything harder than marijuana and he was like no. And I was like, okay, that was a lie, because as soon as we got married the drugs started. He was very, very controlling, didn't want me to leave the house and he would physically keep me from leaving.

Speaker 1:

A lot of verbal abuse. And it got even worse when he kept asking me about my dad because he was around when I was 15, when my dad was in prison. So he knew my dad was in prison because of me and so he wanted to know all the details. And I'm like I don't wanna talk about it Cause I'm like I'm past all that, I'm like I wanna go on with my life. And yes, my parents were, you know, and that side of the family were very much a part of my life, cause if I had stepped away from my dad, that's pretty much everybody that I knew, you know, kind of like my mom. So it just kind of spiraled from there.

Speaker 1:

His drug abuse got worse. There was one instance where he ended up going to jail for slapping me and I think there was only two instances where he actually hit me, but it was more of the verbal abuse, the control. I mean he would even keep me from going out the door and going to work. So I mean and that was, you know, that's another kind of abuse I ended up getting a domestic violence protective order against him one night when he ended up coming back to the house.

Speaker 1:

I was trying to get in the leave. He wouldn't leave, so I had to end up calling the cops because he broke my door in and when he broke the door in he ended up running away from the house instead of coming in the house to do anything. So, but he ended up staying the rest of the night cause he couldn't leave. He wouldn't let me leave, so after I told him I had to go to work, so I ended up leaving and when I got to work I called the cops and said hey, this is what happened. I need you to pick him up, because it could have been a lot worse if I was able to call the cops then and he found out if I called and we were there by ourselves. There's no telling what could have happened.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, could have potentially been a murder, suicide type situation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the reason I got the DVPO was because one morning we were lying in bed and he goes yeah, I did have this thought about killing you and I'm like, oh okay, I've never heard those words come out of your mouth or any kind of intention that you would kill me, but hearing those words come out of your mouth like that, it's like, yeah, I definitely have to get the protective order. Because I had tried once before to get a protective order and I kind of backed out on it. But once he said that it was like no, yeah, I got to get out of this. So that's why, when he did come back to the house that night and kicked my door in, so just to kind of not escalate things, I was just like I got to work, just whatever.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and listeners if you're listening. That is the way to de-escalate a violent situation like that. Again, in the pursuit of my doctorate, I'm learning so much and so, as I'm on this podcast, I'm beginning to actually be able to help people with solid psychological information, and that is very, very common. A lot of times, though, when those situations do get escalated, it's because the other person kind of escalates it. We had code words that if my ex-husband showed up basically and this is something that I just want listeners out there I feel impressed to say this, given that story that you just told, because if you are out there in one of these marriages, the best thing for you to do if they come to harm you is to de-escalate it there.

Speaker 3:

So, for example, I was under the instruction because I had a lifetime restraining order to Tina against my ex-husband, and I was under the instruction that if he showed up, I was about 220 miles from him, but that if he showed up, that I was to be like, oh my gosh, nobody else will, let me be around you, it's all them.

Speaker 3:

But you know what I'm supposed to meet a friend somewhere, let me just call them and tell them that I can't make it, and all of my friends knew the code phrase the plan has changed and they knew to ping my phone and to send help, and so I felt very, very pressed even though that's not the point of this particular episode that if you are in the middle of a domestic violence situation, what Tina did when he kicked in the door was like, yeah, raise up your hands, go whatever dude and lie through your teeth if you have to Do anything you can to remain safe. So, tina, we have gone from you being a survivor of incest and your dad is in jail for seven and a half years to marriage, to a terrible domestic violence marriage, to now, where you've written a book called Better Than I Should Be, and so I do have a few questions for you, though, because I know the listeners want to know. So talk to me about why you still believe that Jesus loves you after all of that.

Speaker 1:

Because I saw how he was working in my life, things that happened that wouldn't happen otherwise. I don't believe in coincidence. So it was just me still going to church, still having that faith. And you have to have some kind of hope, Because if you don't, then you just fall into despair and then it's like, once you get to that point, it's like anything goes, there's no forgiveness for anybody, you just do whatever you want to do. And I still believe that there's a God, and it's like I can't just do whatever I want to do and please, god, yeah.

Speaker 3:

And I still do, as open your eyes and know he's there and know that he loves you. However, we are human beings. Did you ever have a dark night of the soul with Jesus where you either stopped talking to him, stopped going to church, stopped believing? Did you ever have that at all? Did you ever cry out? Why are you doing these things to me? Is any of that part of your faith journey? Because you've been through a lot. When we look at adverse childhood experiences, just talking to you in this brief conversation, you've got to what clinicians would be a pretty high score for adverse childhood experiences, and so your book Better Than I Should Be is perfect, right, but my listeners are going. I don't, I can't. It sounds like she just believed God and it was all rainbows and butterflies.

Speaker 1:

Oh, no, no, no, my dad. He was in prison for seven and a half years, so it was around nine years old when he first went to jail. Because he came back when I was like 16 and a half, close to 17. I went to go stay with my grandparents when he first came home, because we weren't supposed to be living in the same home. I ended up feeling really bad and I just wanted my mom and I ended up going back and staying over at the house for a couple of nights and that was all it was supposed to be, but I ended up moving back in with them. So not long after I moved back in with them, the whole grooming thing started again, which, being a teenager, it was worse than what it was when I was a kid. And that's why I said when you know, with with me and Jamie, because me and Jamie started dating not long after my dad came home. So that's where the on again, off again stuff started.

Speaker 3:

And all kind of confusing things going on and your body and your life and all of that. Corey Asbury has a song called Kind and the lyrics, the beginning of the lyrics. It's been a while since I've actually said it, but sometimes babies die, sometimes rehab terms to relapse and we're left just asking why any questions God? And he questions who, why he chooses who he does and doesn't heal. But the very end of that song is so powerful to me because he says and on that day, on that dark day, when I looked upon the cross, I looked up at my savior and I realized that's what kindness cost. And so I ask you, tina, with everything that you've been through, do you believe that God has been kind to you and if so, why?

Speaker 1:

I do, because I believe everyone's allowed free will and I don't think that God says, okay, well, I'm gonna make him do this to you and see how you react to it. I believe people do things out of their own will and it's up to us to figure out how we're gonna react to that, whether we're just gonna give into it or if we're gonna push back on it or if we're just gonna say okay, god, I know I'm in this situation. I didn't ask for it, but I want you to help me get through it. So, yeah, I think he's kind because, like I said, it's not him that's doing the things to me, it's people.

Speaker 3:

And you know that is not an answer that we've gotten, and it's exactly the kind of answers that I want. And one of my least favorite answers in the world when we talk about suffering is we live in a broken world, but we do. And there's free will, but there is. And so, when it comes to assigning blame to our trauma, it is not the God of the universe who, yeah, he could stop it, but he also gave us free will, and trauma happens at the hands of people who choose to use that free will in a way that is evil in some ways, and so it doesn't mean that, if you have stories like yours and you have stories like mine that you don't sometimes throw up your hands and say, god, can you give me a break. But I'll tell you, tina, that I had a couple of dark nights at the soul, but never once where I wanted to walk away from the only person that I knew could help me with the intense pain. Because I, like you, I love your answer at the beginning of the episode where you just cited that song.

Speaker 3:

You know we sang in church Jesus loves me, and for two sexual abuse survivors and two domestic violence survivors, it's all we wanted. Right, because love gets confused and it gets tainted, and it gets, and it gets, it gets bastardized in domestic violence situations, in the sexual abuse situations, and we realized that he is the epitome of love, perfect love cast out fear. And so for us to be able to be sitting here on a Saturday morning saying, yes, I was abused In both our cases by two people who should have loved us the most. Right, like your dad should have protected you the most, your husband should have protected you the most. And so for us to just remember that simple refrain Jesus loves me. This I know, for the Bible tells me so. Powerful stuff, powerful stuff. And so where is your relationship, or lack thereof, with your dad today? Your relationship, or lack thereof, with your dad today?

Speaker 1:

Um, well, both of my parents passed away in 2020, but prior to that, like I said, my parents have always been in my. They've been in my life and, as far as my dad, it was always keeping my arms linked. We can still have a relationship, but you know, I got you over here and with my mom, my mom's always been a Christian, but she hasn't hadn't been in church or whatever. She's always believed. My mom ended up with COPD. She had to stay at home, stay at home a lot, because she was on oxygen 24, seven and that's all she did. She was in the Bible all the time. Because of that, my dad ended up getting saved, like later.

Speaker 3:

Wait what.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. So my dad ended up getting saved and in I think it was 2014. It was on Christmas day. He told me. He said hey, don't leave until I talk to you. And we were at my grandma's house and I was like, okay, but we ended up leaving there and going back to my parents house, which was right beside my uncle and my aunt's house. We had been there for a while and then he came over to me, grabbed my hand. He's like come walk with me, I want to talk to you. So we ended up walking on the road and he told me. He said I just wanted to let you know that I've been going to therapy and what I. I know that what I did to you was wrong, and he asked me what I thought about it and I told him that I was very happy that he was finally getting help.

Speaker 1:

I listened more than I said anything, because I was like, how do I process this? Because I had already forgiven my dad and that was by my choice, because I'm like Bible tells me I'm supposed to forgive If I expect Jesus to forgive me, I got to do the same thing. And so, after after he did that and we were getting ready to leave, I sat in the car and I looked at my daughter. I said, guess what just happened. And I told her he apologized to me and she's like how does that make you feel? Mind you, she's like 14 or 15. That's gonna be how that made me feel and I said makes me mad, because I forgave him, because I wanted to forgive him.

Speaker 1:

I'm like now that he's apologized, I have to forgive him. So to me it felt like he kind of took control back from me and it was no longer my choice to forgive him. So for about a week I was really angry about it, like how can you say that and take control back from me? I forgave you because I wanted to. And then I was like, well, if I'm having this issue, thinking this, I'm like did I really forgive him? And then it was kind of like God was well. I don't know if it was me or if it was God saying it, but I'm sure he kind of prompted it. It's like okay, are you done now? It's like, yeah, I'm done. And after that week it's like I hadn't had an issue with it whatsoever.

Speaker 3:

Then I am absolutely stunned because I did not know that part.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Guys, that's what faith can do. Tina, there is no logical reason why you should have been able to hold on to your faith during all of this, and I have no doubt that your dad, that you are the reason or one of the reasons why he wanted Jesus, because he probably looked at you and said how in the world could she still love me after what I've done to her and Tina? The only way that that could be true listeners, that's the only way that that can be true is because you believed in something bigger than yourself and you also understood that we cannot take Ephesians 4 32. You just mentioned it. Christ forgave me. I have to forgive him.

Speaker 3:

Listen, I didn't write the Bible. I don't necessarily like that verse, if I'm being honest with you, but we can't take it out of the Bible. But, tina, one of the things that immediately came to my mind this is the gospel. This is why Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins. Your dad sends his atrocities against you and my son of yelling at my roommate this morning. This is why he died. But the verse that came to my mind about your dad is this 1 Corinthians 5 17. If any man be in Christ. He is a new creature. All the oldest passed away and all things are becoming new. How long did you get with your dad after he became a Christian, to to honor him in the way that that you had always wanted to?

Speaker 1:

Well after the apology, that was in 2014,. So about six years.

Speaker 3:

I'm so grateful for that for you. I really am. I'm so grateful for that for you. Your faith changed the course of eternity and, if you're anything like me, you wrote a book. I love the title of the book better than I should be.

Speaker 3:

Do you ever feel like, wow, god has been so unbelievably faithful? Because, while I'm not perfect and I'm looking as you're across the screen and as you tell some of the stories, I'm seeing some of the things that I'm learning in school. That's like, yeah, that you know this is what we do to protect ourselves, just kind of staring off into space as you tell the story and that kind of thing, and so the pain is never going to leave you. But all I can think of is all of our lives he has been faithful. Even in the dark rooms of abuse, even in the throes of domestic violence, he was still faithful, and that is going to confuse people who don't know him. Tell us quickly about the book, where they can find it, because this is a story that just highlights the story of the story. Jesus, I am stunned right now that your dad came to know the Lord Stunned.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I attribute a lot of that to the fact that my mom chose to stay. I know a lot of people question it. It's like why didn't your mom leave If God wanted her to stay? For just that one reason for my dad to get saved. Who am I to judge that? I should be thankful that he did get saved and I can say that he's in heaven.

Speaker 3:

Him and my mom, I don't even. I'm just so blown away again by God.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

Okay. So, as we're at the end of the podcast here right now, I always like to give the microphone to the guests. So there are people from all over the world that listen to this podcast, most of them trauma survivors, most of them asking the question how can a loving God do all of these things? Oh, wow, all of these things, and we've talked about that and we're not going to continue with that answer because to some people, a broken world and free choice don't make sense. But we both know that when you're going through those dark times, you have those dark nights of the soul. You're in a dark room. You've got two choices to make to stay in the dark or to try to step towards the light. What do you say to that person who doesn't have your faith, who doesn't believe in your Jesus, but who has experienced some of the things that you have?

Speaker 1:

That's a good question, because I had Jesus throughout my and I don't see how people can do it without him. To tell you the truth, because if you, like I was saying earlier, if you don't have that hope, you know it's easy to fall into hopelessness and despair and just. But I will tell them that there is a hope and it is Jesus, and that's pretty much what my book is about and it's you know my story. And I've had all those emotions where, especially when I was in my late teens, when he came back home, I was like God, either take him out or take me out. I'm like this has got to stop.

Speaker 1:

And, yeah, suicide popped in my head. But I was like I can't do that. You know, god put me here. He loves me, and that would be like a slap in his face, just like, okay, my life doesn't mean anything anymore. So I'm going to take myself out. You know so I couldn't do that. So I understand all those things. Just because I am where I am today Doesn't mean that I didn't go through that stuff and I didn't have those feelings, because I definitely had those feelings and I want people to know. But I really think that Jesus is the answer. I know that's kind of cliche. Jesus is the answer, but that is the answer.

Speaker 3:

It is so true. It is so true and I say it all the time I don't know how people do it without Jesus Very much like you, and that I had him during all of it. Right, I'm going to church learning that Jesus loves me. I will say to you that I felt that so strongly when that was your answer that Jesus loves me, and I think that if we can, as human beings, get that in our minds and believe it with all of our hearts and this is the part where I extend an open invitation to those of you listening in the show notes, you're going to have a link where you can click contact Amy and contact Tina. We would love to introduce you to the star of the story. We are not two people who have always walked this perfectly or who have not asked questions of God, but we are two people who landed at the only place that is ever going to make sense is at the foot of the cross, at Jesus, because we cannot do it in this life without him. There are tons of people, tina, with our stories out there who are addicted to drugs, living lives of promiscuity, all kinds of things, because they have chosen that to believe that God is cruel for letting them go through what they've gone through, and so they try to live a life absent of him, which is disastrous. And so, guys, the book is called Better Than I Should Be. I will be giving away two copies of this, and so, if you click on that same link and follow me on Instagram, I will draw from people who are Instagram followers to send a couple of Tina's book Better Than I Should Be.

Speaker 3:

Tina, I want to end this podcast with you, as I end it with everybody else. I proclaim over you, as I proclaim over all of our listeners Tina, today, regardless of what today brings and regardless of what yesterday brought, you are seen, you are known, you are heard, you are loved and you are so, so, valued. And what you've done here today and what you're doing with your book is just nothing within the extension of the gospel. And may you be found faithful, and Jesus does love you so much. We've never been more loved than we are right now. We don't have to do anything to earn his love.

Speaker 3:

If there's shame in our background, there's sin in our background. We have never been more loved than we are right now. As a song giver says I wasn't holding you up, so I can't let you down. You've never been more loved than you are right now. And so, tina, as you go throughout this day and you continue with your ministry and your life, it is my prayer that the God of the universe would continue to just hold your heart and give you that grace that is so, so, so sufficient. People are asking how? How can two people talk about this and still deeply, deeply love Jesus? Because of Jesus and his kindness, thank you for being here today.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much, it was a pleasure.

Speaker 3:

All right, guys, go out and get the book better than I should be, and or follow me on Instagram for an opportunity to get one sent to you. We will be back here in two weeks, as we are going to be speaking with author Rachel McDaniel. Rachel has her own story of faith and walking through very difficult times, and so we will see you back in two weeks. If you're not following the podcast, please do that right now, in the app, where you are, and remember you are seen, you are known, you are heard, you are loved and you are so, so valued. Y'all have a good two weeks.

Speaker 2:

You have pulled me out from the depths. You have saved me from certain death. You have shown yourself faithful to me over and over Jesus. So let my life glorify you and teach me to walk beside you. I want to be more like you, so let my life be one more time for you, and when my hope is fading and when worries do assail me, I will remember how you you never fail me. You have pulled me out from the depths. You have saved me from certain death. You have shown yourself faithful to me over and over Jesus. So let my life glorify you and teach me to walk beside you. I want to be more like you, so let my life be one more time for you. More by you, more by you.

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Amy Watson

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