Wednesdays With Watson: Faith & Trauma Amy Watson- PTSD Patient-Trauma Survivor

Trauma Informed Church: The Role of Trauma-Informed Care in Church Communities, ft Dr. Catherine Jackson

• Amy Watson: Trauma Survivor, Hope Carrier, Precious Daughter Of The Most High God • Season 6 • Episode 17

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Have you ever wondered how to carry Christ's love into the challenging spaces where trauma resides? Dr. Catherine Jackson, known affectionately as Dr. J, graces our podcast with her deep understanding of neuropsychology and trauma-informed therapy. As we walk through Mental Health Awareness Month, we peel back the layers of trauma's impact on our church communities and the crucial role of creating safe, healing environments.

This episode is a heartfelt exploration of the ways we, as a church body, can better recognize and respond to the pain beneath the surface. From the importance of simple gestures like a cup of coffee invitation to the transformative power of patient listening, we discuss the balance between sharing and oversharing within our faith communities. We also delve into the significance of trauma response, especially in women's ministries, and how leadership can navigate these sensitive realms with compassion and grace.

As we wrap things up, we contemplate how mental health support teams could revolutionize care within the church, mirroring the compassion Jesus exemplified. We also prepare for our next meaningful conversation with Lainey Gibney on trauma-informed foster parenting. Join us for this rich dialogue that promises to empower you with wisdom and empathy, ensuring that everyone feels seen, known, heard, loved, and valued – because that's exactly what Jesus would do.

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SEEN KNOWN HEARD LOVED VALUED

Speaker 2:

You make me laugh a little louder. You make me dream a new episode. Before we start today, though, I do want to tell all of you about a brand new feature in the show notes, and particularly today, you guys are going to love this podcast. Right now, there will be a link that says send us a text message, and if you have a question for my guests or myself, you can send a text message to the podcast, and the best way to get the answer to that podcast is to go to Instagram and we will answer your question on Instagram. So, when you text us, give your Instagram handle or a way to get in touch with you, and we will be glad to answer those questions. Brand new feature rolled out by my podcast host, and I think it's an amazing one. So if you have a question, we will answer it.

Speaker 2:

Today's guest is none other than Dr Katherine Jackson, who I affectionately, and many people affectionately, call Dr J. She has been on the podcast before, and we are excited to bring you an episode today, darren Mental Health Awareness Month, where it is my goal and my desire, as well as Dr Jackson's, to inform people on trauma. As many of you know, I am at the tail end of earning my doctorate degree in educational psychology, with a focus on trauma and community care. And so, while both of us, and particularly Dr Jackson, has actually received her doctorate degree, both of us are here with some information that will be useful to you. I do want to remind you that today's episode is meant for education and entertainment purposes only. We do pray that you take something away from it, but we are not here to change your world. In that respect, we want you to make sure that you are being responsible with this information. So, with that being said, let's drop into this episode with my friend Dr Katherine Jackson. Dr J, welcome back to the Wednesdays with Watson podcast.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for having me back.

Speaker 2:

You are welcome. You are a popular guest on this, on this podcast. When I look at your episodes, it is among some of the most listened to episodes. We are grateful. But for those people who are listening, who may not have heard some of your episodes, give us a little bit of an intro on yourself, your heart, your passion, your work, and then we will. We will move on into today, into today's episode.

Speaker 3:

So I'm never prepared to talk about myself, which is kind of sad, but I am Dr Katherine Jackson. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and I'm board certified in neuropsych and I'm also a trauma trained therapist, so it fills a lot of topic here today. I've authored books, created mental health and wellness products and if you just search my name, I've been featured all over the place in so many different places. But for today, I'm just excited about this topic and I think it's something that is much needed for every church really.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I agree, and so you have great Instagram presence and listeners in the show notes right underneath that. Send a text message. You will have an opportunity to follow Dr Jackson on Instagram. She posts with purpose, which I love, and so you will learn a lot from her. But, yes, today.

Speaker 2:

So Dr J and I were chatting back and forth about this episode, particularly during Mental Health Awareness Month, and, as the Lord would order it, she just messaged me. She was like oh, I have a conference where I am going to be talking about the trauma-informed church. And I was like okay, I've wanted to talk about that. I don't feel qualified to do that all by myself. That's what we're going to talk about today, and so let's first talk about. I think we both agree on the role of the church in everybody's life and who the church is right. So I want to be very clear as we talk about this that this is not an episode that is meant to highlight anything in the past, necessarily, but it is an episode that is meant to help leaders and lay people and even church members understand trauma, because I think that in our society today, and particularly in the church and particularly my generation, gen X, we believe that our mental health is tied to our faith. How, if we are lacking in mental health, then we're lacking in faith, and we're going to get into some topics today that are going to uncover that. And so I think the first question I would have for you, dr J and this might seem like an obvious one, but in your first of all, we know that the church is us, right, the church is you, the church is me, the church is the listeners with earbuds, the church the body of Christ, we are the hands and feet of Jesus. And so when we talk about the trauma-informed church, we're not talking about a building, we're not even talking about, necessarily, leaders. We are talking about God's people, that bride, jesus' church. And so talk to us a little bit.

Speaker 2:

I want to start with the problem. You can tell I'm deep in dissertation mode at the moment. So I want to talk about the gap right now. Where do you see the gap and how churches understand those congregants, those members of their churches who have experienced trauma. Definition, by the way, listeners, is a compromise. There's the DSM definition of trauma, which is basically life or limb has been threatened, or you've seen, life or limb has been threatened, but the fact of the matter is is we have a lot of people sitting in our pews, benches, stadium seating, whatever you want to call it that are sitting in pain, and so where are we, as a church leadership and congregants, lay people, in your opinion, missing the mark right now as it pertains to ministering to those people?

Speaker 3:

That's a big one, and before I answer that one, I just want to go a little further into trauma. So yeah, the DSM is life or limb. You know, you've seen it, experienced it. But trauma goes so much, it goes so much further beyond just that. And so for the diagnosis of PTSD from the DSM, of course it's more extreme, but there's so many everyday traumas that we experience. People will experience things that are emotional, physical, even physical, that we can't see, like emotional abuse, neglect, any adverse events in your life. Domestic violence can fall in there.

Speaker 3:

I know that's a big thing that you've talked a lot about on the podcast too. There's a lot that falls under that. I don't think that the DSM always captures Agreed, and so when we talk about a trauma-informed church, we go beyond even what the DSM is talking about. And so where I think we the church members, leaders or whichever way we want to say it where there's a gap is first, recognizing what trauma looks like, and second, I think we missed the mark on how to actually respond to the trauma that walks into the church doors, and I don't care if the church is just somebody coming up to you as a Christian, as a child of God, or if it's physically the church, the building, when people walk in for Sunday service or for Bible study or for whatever events that the church may hold. I think we missed the mark on how to respond to it. Firstly, you have to recognize that you can't respond to something if you can't even recognize that that is what's going on.

Speaker 2:

Right, and to put a little bit of context in it, we're both scientists. We can actually give you guys some numbers right. One out of four people that walk into your building have experienced there's a couple, there's a couple. One out of four people that walk into your building have experienced there's a couple. One out of every fours. You know domestic violence is, or intimate partner violence, whichever term we want to call that. One out of every four women have been abused in some way. So that means one out of every four women that walk into churches have been abused in one way or the other. One out of every four people that walk into your building are abused in one way or the other. One out of every four people that walk into your building are either diagnosed or undiagnosed with a mental illness.

Speaker 2:

So that is 25% of your population that walks in the door. We talk about a lot on this podcast about adverse childhood experiences, and these are things that people are not going to talk to you about. So the likelihood that trauma is walking, we know that 25% of people that have experienced a traumatic event and we are not talking DSM because, really, here's the deal Trauma is so unique to each individual Maybe traumatic to one person is not traumatic to another person, and I think one of the ways we miss the mark is we categorize them, we compare them, we say, oh well, I, and I say and I say this even as, as trauma survivors and trauma people who have experienced trauma, they go well, I don't have Amy's story, or I don't have Jimmy's story, so I, so my pain doesn't matter. And so I think it's important to not only recognize what trauma is, but it's really important to inform those who, who, who, greeters and leaders, and life group leaders and and, and all of these people what to look for. Yeah, trauma walks in.

Speaker 3:

Go ahead On the other end, how you said, some people will say well, mine is not as big as Amy's, you know, so then I downplay mine, or maybe people around me may downplay it. And there are other people I've gotten this a lot where if I talk about something that maybe is traumatic for me, or maybe something big that I've gone through, then they talk about how much bigger theirs is and then they overshadow it and then it lessens the value of what I'm going through. And in our field, or in the field of trauma so our field there's this whole talk about big T and little t, but sometimes I wonder if that diminishes, how big it is for somebody. Something that is considered a little trauma whatever that even would be could feel like a big trauma to somebody else, and that's all that truly matters. I think one trauma is more or bigger or more important than another trauma.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so important and we say a lot on this podcast that we don't compare traumas, because the fact of the matter is, as image bearers, we are built a certain way and it just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, right, If they are walking into our doors of our church and they are hurting. I think it's so important for us to recognize those people. I've had a real heart lately, Dr J, for I describe it like this it's the woman who comes to church by herself, she sits by herself and she leaves by herself and cause I was that person.

Speaker 2:

Now, it's those kinds of recognitions, but we, I don't think that we can recognize these hurting people until we understand that we have to be more than just you know, welcome to church. You know, is this your first time? Or whatever I. What are your recommendations, if you, in terms of helping those people charged with caring for people? What are some things we can be looking out for for people who, who have experienced trauma, who need their hearts ministered to by the church, and and and by that I mean the institution of the church and the people sitting around them?

Speaker 3:

so what you just said. I would not have even considered that when coming by yourself kind of a loner or not, or who appears to be a loner, they may not even be that type of person, naturally, or personality wise, listening to some of the things that people share and they say without diminishing it. So if somebody's coming in and talking about something with their weekend or how they cope with their stress, you know we need to listen with a careful ear. If every time they cope with stresses in some unhealthy way either with drugs, alcohol, with partying and some other type of way or any types of unhealthy things we're looking out for and listening for trauma or should be attuned to something that it may be some trauma or some kind of hurt that needs to be healed behind that. So those are a couple. I'm sure you have more.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I don't think anybody's going to come into church and wear a sign and say I have trauma. I think some of the ways you know, especially particularly in women's ministries, which I've been involved in for quite some time, I think in women's ministries sometimes these things come out in prayer requests in small groups, right, yeah, they come out in behaviors. Let's talk about that for a second. You know, particularly in women's ministries, attention seeking behaviors that sometimes could drive us crazy, right, like they. You know they'll overshare in a group or things like that. I think that we're looking for we're looking for that and I and I keep going back to women I, I'm, I don't feel qualified to talk about looking. Well, I feel qualified, but I think it's too big for the scope of this process, this podcast, to talk about trauma and children. That's a whole different thing, because now we're mandated reporters and things in nature. But I think that the bottom line here because everybody listening to this is being like I don don't know what you're talking.

Speaker 2:

I think you said something really, really important a few minutes ago and is that listening with that active ear? It's, it's engaging in community with people. If you're in a mega church like I'm in it's. It's developing, uh, safe spaces because, by the way, everyone who's been through trauma, that's what we need. We need safety, and if we want to minister to these people, they need to feel safe. And so I think that, first of all, we have to have the heart and the eyes and the wisdom and pray for the wisdom for God to remove the scales off of our eyes.

Speaker 2:

For the people like me who walked in a church in 2007 with a body of trauma and I didn't look that part right, I was dressed up and you know all the things, well-educated and all of that but I think that we need a hyper focus from leadership on this, and here's what I mean by that is and I would wonder if you would agree with me on this is we need training. We need, first of all, we need to gather a group of volunteers that are like you know what? I'll be the trauma watchers, and I just made that word up, but I'll be. I will look out for these people and train, train that group of people, because we, what everybody's listening to, this is going to be like, okay, well, I recognize that somebody that has trauma, but now what?

Speaker 2:

I'm not qualified to help them and I think that we have to love people where they are. But I think that we also have to be wise enough to refer. And many churches I know my church has a counseling center attached to it. But your second point there was our response. Okay, so now Susie walks in, clearly living with trauma and that has exhibited itself in any number of ways.

Speaker 2:

And, dr J, you can tell me whether you agree with this. Most people with significant amount of trauma or a hurting person that'll come into your church if you give them this much attention by way of hello hey, let's go get coffee, let's go sit in the cafe over there, let's go get dinner that one little act of, hey, I would love to catch coffee with you, they're going to tell you, don't you think, the people that you are hurting and for those of us who never get the invite for coffee or for lunch or something like that, it shows up, like you said, in the behaviors if we have something going on at the church and it's like the free, open share, so maybe like bible study, and and one of the questions is actually related to a scripture, then there will be this, this over pouring out, you know outwardly sharing, because they haven't had a space to actually talk about or explore some of the things in any other space.

Speaker 3:

And so that's what I mean about being aware, something like that, when people are speaking over and kind of taking up a lot of the time in a space that's dedicated to something else, but then it becomes more about kind of this thing that they're going through, or even just the pain that they're feeling with their minds or their bodies.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it will come out, because trauma will not be ignored and I know that one particular issue and again I go back to women's ministries because I don't have experience in dealing with trauma and men and I wonder what your professional opinion of this is so lots of times then. So my pastor's wife in particular is really good at just kind of leaning into people's pain and listening and wanting to help and referring out, and she does that really well. But we do have a sector of people who just want to constantly and for lack of a better way to explain this drain a resource and so they come into again. I'm envisioning like a life group type situation. They overshare, and I even hate that word overshare because really, if they're sharing, to me that's an honor, even though you're like we need to get through all of Acts.

Speaker 2:

Chapter two today, you know, susie just took up 15 minutes talking to us about, about your, your path, and that's a, that's a big red flag.

Speaker 2:

But but that's also an honor because you've created a safe place for them to do that. But I know that a lot of the frustration as it pertains to people who lead and I keep going back to women because that's my perspective is that so in this case, the recognize the trauma, we reach out. We say let's go to lunch, or we have a listening ear and we give them the best wisdom that we can. I'm praying for you, I'm asking questions, I'm listening to you, I give you that active ear, but there is no attempt and no change on behalf of the survivor to take any of that advice. And so I think what happens a lot of times in church leadership is this extreme frustration is like I just spent six months with you, kind of guiding you through this and listening to you and you all you want or it appears that all you want is me to just to continually listen, listen, listen, listen, and I think a lot of people in those positions feel drained in those situations. Do you have any advice for us in that regard?

Speaker 3:

So of course, you said a lot in here. I'll be quiet when I get to the drain. You're right, I don't feel like there's an oversharing, and this is my point. People are oversharing in some spaces that maybe you had an agenda and this whole thing you wanted to get through and somebody may be taking up time or taking up space, so I'm air quoting those. But that is a perfect time for leadership and other members of the body of Christ to notice that there's something more going on with this person and to respond effectively and accordingly. So I just want to say that part, because it'll come on, it will look like oversharing, but this is one of those times where we need to be aware, we need to kind of put those tune the ears and say this person probably needs something more. You can allow them to share and to do whatever in that space, and then this is a time to respond differently after that particular event is over. And then you asked the question, but I forgot.

Speaker 2:

Well, actually, let me write it down so I don't forget it, because something that you just said was really significant to me, so I can't agree with you more. So, again, I'm envisioning a circle of women and something will trigger a share, and we're going to stop calling it overshare.

Speaker 3:

Because this is the body of Christ. It's really just a share.

Speaker 2:

Right, this is the body of Christ and this person feels safe. What an honor, what an honor to sit in a group of people or to lead a group of people who feel safe, to share that they're hurting Right. And so there is an appropriate response there where we listen and and and I was in a in a situation a couple of weeks ago where this happened and I literally I didn't even realize I was doing this Um, I literally leaned, leaned into. We were in a circle and I got up on the edge of my chair and I leaned in like this on my chin, my thumb on my chin, and I was looking at her and I was listening, and I was listening and in front of all those people, I asked one simple question what can we do better? What can we do better?

Speaker 2:

And so I think that, if I'm hearing you right, we have to be careful in groups like that about our agendas. We want to get through, whatever the material is that we want to get through, but the Holy Spirit has entered to that place by and said this person has come into the hospital for the hurting and to the church and to the body of Christ, and they have just honored us with their pain, with a story of their pain, yes, and what the appropriate response and I'll let you answer that in my opinion, is like boy, when that person is sharing we are. Oh Lord, jesus, holy Spirit, please, please, let me know what to say. Please let me know what to say in this moment and let me know what to do you know so.

Speaker 2:

So I I think that we there may need to be a paradigm shift, particularly for people who have been in ministry for so long. They get jilted by people that and this was my question to you is so we have Susie who comes in and shares, and we've we respond and and the way that we feel appropriate. And, by the way, that's not shutting them down, we and you and if you disagree with me, please let me know but I think that we have to set aside our agenda when somebody brings their pain to a group like that, and it's going to make everybody uncomfortable, and that's exactly the gospel. Yeah, we need to be uncomfortable to help people.

Speaker 3:

The discomfort is what we need to pay attention to. So if every week at this particular church function, susie comes in and she is sharing and it's making me feel uncomfortable, I need to pay attention to what that discomfort is telling me. What is it telling me? Why is it coming up? And sometimes we're missing the mark that that discomfort is telling us to act and respond Right To provide something more to Susie.

Speaker 2:

Right, right, and so we make it about us.

Speaker 3:

We make it about the fact that, oh, my goodness, I thought we were going to get through.

Speaker 2:

you know, first job, we're an extra month on it because Susie comes in here and she she does this and she's talking about that, right In your opinion, what is some responses when so, so, so, and I'm not asking for like particulars, but Susie comes and she shares. You said one already. I think it's huge. It might be the answer the act of listening.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

What a gift of love that is to give them the airtime and that group that is normally reserved for something else. It's like they, in my opinion. In that and that and that moment they feel seen and known and heard and loved and valued. Yeah, yeah. And so is the proper response listening and depending on the Holy spirit for for the verbal response in that moment.

Speaker 3:

If there's even a verbal response sometimes there's no verbal response.

Speaker 3:

Sometimes we need, we need the physical response of that hug or the closeness, just being close to somebody, sometimes the pats on the back, validating her feelings, her experiences and what she's saying, and then some other ways of responding, especially when we talk about being a trauma-informed.

Speaker 3:

Church is then working to empower, and so if we are Christians, people of faith, we're always listening to what the Holy Spirit wants us to say and do. Sometimes that may not come immediately. Susie may share her story today, and God may let it. You know, he may be talking to me during the week, he may be talking to you and some other people who were in attendance and then giving us what our response is, but in that moment she may not even need all of us to say a whole bunch of things, but to just acknowledge her story, to validate her story, to let her feel heard and let her feel seen in that moment, and then later maybe we work on some things that help her to feel more empowered, given whatever she's gone through and whatever she shared, and then help her to get connected to things that will help her to heal. Right, and I'm in the same day, though.

Speaker 2:

And see, that's good for for me to hear, because, yeah, I want to. I want to fix it now.

Speaker 2:

I want to know what to say now. I'm an empath and so I'm absorbing that pain and I want to take it from them. And in this instance, in this particular situation, she, you know, she was sharing with us an experience that she had, that was at the church, actually, and I just found myself leaning in my chair and said, and my question to her was what can we do better? I think, dr J, that there are leaders out there and they're good people with good hearts, but they've been in ministries for decades.

Speaker 2:

They've been in ministry for decades and decades and decades and I know this was true at the children's home Lots of times. The leaders there would spend all kinds of time with children and listen and try to help them, and the child would just continue to stay stuck in the story. So you know, if we then helped them based on the story and and and maybe that's the point we don't need to help, we just need to listen If we listened more instead of telling them what to do, maybe they wouldn't come back on rents and repeat, because I know there's a lot of leaders out there who are like man. I've worked with Susie for two years now and I'm seeing no growth no change in the story.

Speaker 2:

She just continues to come back and tell me the same story over and, over and over again. Where are we missing the mark in?

Speaker 3:

that regard. Maybe this is the therapist in me, though I feel like there's power in listening. Even as you're talking now we're talking about this subject, neither one of us sharing a particular hurtful or hard experience. I'm nodding, I'm attuned with you. That means a lot, and you can tell that I'm listening right now.

Speaker 3:

And so if Susie comes in with something way greater, right, way, heavier, much more to what she's saying and we're giving her all of that, that has power, even if we don't have the words some of us won't have the words and if we don't go ahead of what God is telling us to do and we just listen sometimes for some of us. So maybe you know, when you ask that question, that probably was what God told you to say. Like that came from God. I don't know if you just pulled it out of the air, just to take up space, just to feel like you had to do something for Susie, but there are some of us who feel like we have to do something and sometimes we act before we actually consult with God, consult with the Holy Spirit, and so we may say something or do something that'll cause more harm to Susie's situation than it would be helpful.

Speaker 2:

I think you're so right. I think, listen, this is the point of this conversation is we are the body of Christ and if we are called and not everybody is called to minister to other people, but we are all called to love one another and to bear one another's burdens, and this is just straight up scripture. I think that our propensity to things, our propensity to want to do something immediately and then prescribe what change we think should happen because of whatever advice we've given them, and then be upset when that change doesn't happen, is not fair to Susie.

Speaker 3:

Yes, it's not fair. It's not fair to Susie, it's not fair to her growth and her process. Everybody's process and journey will look different. You may give a suggestion to one person and next week they've acted on it and you can immediately see something different. You may give a suggestion to somebody else and maybe you know they're in that stage where they're thinking about it and then they move to starting to slowly work on it and then they're going into a place where they're really working that new thing, that suggestion. We can't put a timeline on somebody else's healing or and we cannot say what that looks like for somebody else the fact that she's still showing up, the fact that she's still sharing, that's a big deal in and of itself and sometimes we need to slow down and just recognize that.

Speaker 2:

And I'm letting that hang because I think that's so important, like we. This is not about us as a trauma-informed church. Knowing that at least 25% of the people that are in your purview have experienced deep, deep pain, trauma. Their safety has been compromised. I'm with you. I don't know what a little T trauma would be right. The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what we call it. If they are hurting, I don't care if it's trauma, I don't care if it's anxiety, I don't care if it's depression, I don't care if it's sadness, I don't care if it's, it doesn't matter to me If they are, if they feel safe enough in that space to to share with you a couple things are true. One, they need to be heard. But number two, there is a gaping hole where they need to feel loved and seen and known and valued. Now, loved and seen and known and valued, now should we be pointing them to the one who always loves and sees and knows and hears and values them Absolutely. But I'll tell you this my experience with walking into a mega church with the body of trauma that I had, I I'd never really shared in a big group, but it was, and maybe this is moving into a little bit of a different part of the conversation, but it was a few people just doing life with me, like hey, you know, welcome to walk. You know welcome to to to Clearwater, where I just moved. Would you like to have a cup of coffee, because not everybody is going to share in a public space. But I think that if we are the body of Christ and we understand that the church is more than a building, that we understand that everybody in that church is an opportunity for a ministry, it could be our calling, it could be our why for that day for a ministry. It could be our calling, it could be our why for that day. And so I think we need to be careful about being frustrated when Susie continues to tell us the same thing over and over again. Now there's some wisdom in saying Susie, I see some things that I'm concerned with here, that I am far underqualified to help you with, and this is where I think churches need to be well-connected to counselors, therapists, and understand the difference of when to send them to a biblical counselor and when to send them to someone like you. I think we're making it too big.

Speaker 2:

I think that there's a song I love. It's an old song by 4Him and this, I think, is why we're on this planet To love God, to love people, because that's the center of the mark. Draw back your bow, let love show, because to love God and to love people is the center of the mark. And so oftentimes, I think, we walk into churches to be fed, and we should right, we should walk into church to be fed, but we should also be understanding that that, and especially in this world that we live in right now, maybe the safest place, place that any of us are all week in terms of people around us. And so this ever looking eye for people who are hurting and this laying down of pride when we get frustrated, when Susie is taking so much of our time, of the same story over and over again is the gospel.

Speaker 2:

Over and over again is the gospel Because if Susie tells you 50 times the 51st time because she might be testing you, the 51st time might be the gotcha moment, might be the oh, and this happened too. And then the church can be like, or the person, whoever it is, can oh, okay. So all this time you felt safe enough to share part of your story with me, and for those of us like me who have been abandoned, susie may be telling that story 25 times to see if you'll stick around.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because that's how they know you'll love them. It's because you stuck around and you listened for the 50th time. And so one day, on the 51st time, she's going to say you know what? I think I'm going to share the big thing, the current thing, the thing that's happening in my home right now, because now I know I can trust this person because I've shared a little bit with them, and I'm thinking particularly of domestic violence.

Speaker 2:

Susie comes in and, you know, is just sharing a few things about her husband. I'm frustrated. He doesn't come to church with me. You know, he whatever you know, fill in the blank. And and we and all of our infinite wisdom and I say that with all the sarcasm in the world give our advice instead of listening, listening, listening.

Speaker 2:

And I think that we would be remiss in this conversation if we didn't say when Susie decided to share. I've been in groups where Susie shared and the leader has said wait, we were just talking about the apostle Paul, but Susie just shared. I think we need to stop and pray about this right now. Nice, I mean, stopped everything and just prayed right then. And so that's the gospel. And so I think that we're getting, we're making this so much bigger when we talk about the trauma informed church or something, and there's some differences and we can talk about this for a second, if you want about the trauma-informed pulpit with the senior leadership understanding that they're speaking to people who are going to walk out of there, particularly if sermons are hit close to the heart. Like you know, mother's Day just passed. I don't even go to church on Mother's Day because it's a very difficult day for me.

Speaker 3:

It's a showy day too. Yeah, it's difficult for some people and it's like people who haven't been to church in a very long time. Right, yes, like Christmas and Easter. Yeah, it's like.

Speaker 2:

Christmas and Easter because mom you know, mom wants them to come to church.

Speaker 2:

But it highlights for some of us, like in my case, it highlights the death of my own mom, it highlights the death of my son, my stepson, and so I guess my point is is that we, if leaders, understand that it is not our job to solve their problems. It is not our, it is not our job to be their psychologist, it is our job to be the body of Christ, it is our job to be Jesus. And I think of, for example, jesus and the woman at the well. He did not call out her sin, he called out her shame and he did that by listening to her and Jesus's interaction. I just finished a Bible study with Jesus's interaction with women and it was always Jesus always was about the listening ear, the kind word, the lack of judgment. Yeah, and when we talk about being a trauma-informed church, everybody wants seminars and we need those to help leadership in particular understand what trauma looks like, and especially as as as you get into different genres with kids and stuff like that.

Speaker 3:

But all in all, I think we're making it bigger than it needs to be and I think we are, and just with hearing what you said, like Jesus responded with the listening ear and he always, he always responded with with gentleness too. I don't care what somebody's sin was, I don't care what the town thought about this woman or this guy God, I mean Jesus he would respond in a different way. Yeah, you responded different from everybody, and so when you say we're making it big, maybe we need to get back to just the simple thing of what would Jesus do?

Speaker 2:

All right.

Speaker 3:

Jesus do if this walked in in the church? If somebody walked in with with some trauma or and it shows up in various ways, what would he do?

Speaker 2:

He'd be about his father's business, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Which is, which is what, Stopping listening what we're supposed to do? Amen, yeah, we are about to we we. How then, shall we live? We are to be about the father's business, and so if somebody stops us going out you know coming out the door and we've got reservations at Olive Garden. You know what Olive Garden is going anywhere, and I do believe that if anybody listening to this wants to be part of a trauma-informed church and we keep air quoting this on YouTube, you'll see us air quoting this. I think, Dr J, what we're simply saying is love God, love people, because that's the gospel.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And, conversely to those of you who are walking into churches needing what we're talking about, find those safe places. Find those people that will be about the Father's business. Find those people who will set aside their own agendas for a time period to listen to you. Find them because they exist. I mean, you're listening to two of them right now, who? I will stop everything, and that doesn't make me a good person. I happen to be an empath and so I'm probably going to notice it a little bit more. And now I'm, to the tune of, you know, like $60,000 educated to know, to know what we're, what we have coming in our doors.

Speaker 2:

I was just making it so complicated when it really is just to respond, as Jesus did. You think of the, and again, all of this is fresh on my mind, but you think of the woman on the wall. And so this is the story where the rabbis and Jesus were all sitting around a table eating, and in that day, you know, some people were allowed to come into these dinners, but they literally had to sit on the perimeter, on the wall. And this is where we see the woman who washed Jesus's feet with her tears and broke out the alabaster box. And Jesus was at a meeting, but he stopped.

Speaker 3:

He had an agenda on that meeting too.

Speaker 2:

He was. He was in a meeting with all these Pharisees, right, and so he stops what he's doing. And the really cool part about that story, dr J and I just learned this I don't know if you know this or not, but when they would have these meals, they would actually lie on their left side and eat with their right hand, so his feet would have been facing the wall where she was, would have been facing the wall where she was, and so she looks down and there's Jesus's feet and she worships him with her tears and with her pain. She honored him with her tears. Like everybody wants to talk about how expensive the perfume and the oils, were, and I get it.

Speaker 2:

But, man, if somebody comes to us with their pain, what an unbelievable honor to be like Jesus and we get frustrated. I get that because these people, those of us with trauma, mostly need attention. We need love, but we need to be listened to, we need to be seen, heard, loved and valued and I keep saying that because that is. And so I'm just weary of posts where it says the church needs to be better, the church needs to be better. The church needs to be better or the church, dear listener, is you and you may say to me.

Speaker 2:

I'm not equipped. I'm the most introverted person in the world. I don't know what to tell you, except for that, If God put that person in your, in your lane and they trusted you with their pain, is that woman on the wall and he pulled her off the wall. Jesus pulled her off the wall and the Pharisees said why would you do that to this broken person? You're here to do something, we're here to have a meeting. And he said to them you didn't give me anything. She gave me her tears and her pain and, by the way, I have kept record of all of those tears. I've collected them in a bottle. She's collected them in a bottle.

Speaker 2:

And so when people come to us with a, with their pain in a group or or they pull us aside or here's a thought we recognize trauma walking in the door, Like you said, pat on the back. Hi, I'm Amy. What's your name? Are you new here? Welcome, Let me show you this cool class. This is the coolest class in the whole church. Come and again.

Speaker 2:

I think of that woman who comes by herself, sits by herself, leaves by herself, and I'm still working my way through how to get to her Because I don't want to walk up to her and say hey, I noticed you're by yourself. I don't even know what to say, but I know that that's on my heart and has been for about the last six weeks is somehow to minister, Like you said. They may be perfectly happy, they might be like my kids are, you know, in the nursery or you know somewhere else, and this is my time. But I would venture to say that that's not the majority of these women who come by themselves, sit by themselves and leave by themselves yeah and so when they come into our purview, they come into our groups, they come into our church.

Speaker 2:

We need to stop going to church looking only to be blessed. We need to be going to church, and in the community too, for that matter.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And in our jobs and all of our interactions for these people who just need a safe place, for these people who just need a safe place because they've experienced trauma, pain, loss and grief. And so I think that you put it very eloquently when we can say let's stop making it so big. And what would Jesus do in that moment when Susie is telling Jesus the story for the 51st time? Yes, and so what else? So what are some other responses, because I know you just did a seminar on this and so I'd love to know some nuggets from that. What are you sharing when you get the opportunity to talk to leaders about a trauma-informed church? We talked about understanding what trauma is and what it is and what the response should be.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, first, first just just really defining what trauma is, going beyond that DSM definition of what what trauma is, and then talking about what it can kind of look like, which is something that we already talked about, and we talked about having a safe space, validating, and then later we will work to empower and to help the person heal, which can come through resources or some other forms of things that you do. But first we just have to hear I just explained what trauma-informed church is, period. A lot of churches haven't truly heard of it or maybe they're just beginning to hear this term being used. For a lot of people they may never come to see somebody like me, and the church will be the first people to recognize that something is going on and that there may be a greater need. It's not unlike a lot of people who feel mental health symptoms somatically and they're going to their medical doctor, and so, of course, over the years, many medical doctors have worked to be more attuned to that and then they'll make a referral for a mental health professional to help. And one of my biggest things with like being trauma informed. There's so many different things that you can put in place, but one of the major components and when I talk to church leaders, leaders or just church people in general anybody who wants to be involved in and be able to recognize when trauma is coming in and to be able to respond in an appropriate way is working to collaborate with mental health professionals who are in the community.

Speaker 3:

It's great that you go to a really big church. I think my mom, she goes to a really huge church. My mom and my dad, they go to a really huge church too. But then what are those smaller, medium size and small churches? What do they do? So for some of them, if they have any mental health professionals in the building, they can defer to them.

Speaker 3:

But sometimes I don't know if you're anything like me I may only have limited time to be able to help with a lot of anything that comes into the church, and so my thing that I've worked with some churches to do is building the counseling ministry, and that can be with people who are actual therapists in your church or, again, if you're a medium size or smaller church, working with people who are outside of the church and you're not just going to send them to, like, abc counseling center without vetting Anybody that you will send your members to.

Speaker 3:

You want to be able to trust what they do and that they are too Christians or faith-based and that they're going to welcome that and bring that into the space too, because you still want your, you still want your members to get that faith base, but you want them to also get the clinical part too, and so you got to vet these different places that are in the community and so that's one of the well, that's where it all kind of points down to, but there's so many other steps to building that trauma informed.

Speaker 2:

Can you share just a couple of those with us, because I know that people are going to be listening to this and we would love to know.

Speaker 3:

Oh yeah. So of course, as we said, the safe space, the validation, the speaking gently you know gently but we also want to be really patient and understanding. We want to be able to offer some alternatives. If we see things are coming up quite a bit with somebody, we want to be able to offer different alternative spaces where they can feel free to be able to share experiences and still get that safety, that protection and that support. And so when we're building a trauma-informed ministry too, education and training is very important. You want to train, of course, the key people who are the leaders of the church, so all the people are over the different ministries.

Speaker 3:

Like you talked a lot about the children, so they need to be. People are over the children's ministries need to be trauma informed, because sometimes the little ones will walk in with trauma and that might be the first sign that something is going on in the home. And so we need to be educated on what it is, what it looks like for a trauma-informed church and, again, trained on how to effectively respond. And then we want to foster community, having those social connections and building individual and group types of support that will be able to meet the needs of people who come through the doors, whether it's for fellowship or any special programs that a church may have. And then, of course, all that I said led with first. That's, lastly is then really working to like, after you put all this stuff in place, you're validating, you're having the open space for people to come to share, You're responding gently, You're thinking about what would Jesus do, but sometimes things become far too heavy for the church leaders and especially for pastors.

Speaker 3:

People turn to their pastors for some of everything.

Speaker 3:

People turn to their pastors for some of everything, and when we take more off the plates of our pastors, so that they're not putting on all these multiple hats and all these multiple roles, when we have people to say, hey, you can go here for this and you can go here for that, that frees up the pastor so that they can then really focus on the word and focus on building the spiritual lives of the members in the church, and so that's.

Speaker 3:

That is another part of it. It's like some churches may have the resources to feed the community every week and that's great for those bigger churches that can do that, but for some other churches we may have people who are in the church who are hungry, but we work with this organization and tell them this is where you can go to get food. And so when we talk about trauma-informed churches and how trauma impacts your mental health, having those vetted people, whether they're in the church or they're outside of the church and within the community, that's going to be key to taking some of the things off the plates of the pastor and other leaders within the church. And we have to recognize when it's become a thing that we need to outsource and maybe we don't take that on for pastoral counseling.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love all of that and I think the real need is the medium and smaller size churches. In many churches there are a couple different groups Reef Caribbean, one of them, divorce Caribbean, another. And Celebrate Recovery, but those are the only three that I can think of. And again, the church is the people. And so you look at somebody like me who is now educated and would be, could be, while I'm not licensed, fully able to be a layperson counselor in a church, where, where church leadership can I'm going to say committee, and that's because it's the only word that can come to my mind right now but, yeah, having these teams, like most churches have a medical team If somebody has a heart attack in the middle of the church there's a group of people with badges around their neck.

Speaker 2:

I'm not saying that this other team that I'm saying that we should form have badges around their neck. But there are people who are there. They've signed up. It's on the calendar. We've got medical coverage for Sunday morning service. I wonder if we had a mental health support team in that regard, where somebody comes up for prayer. I mean, I've seen people Dr J come up for prayer and just almost collapse on the ground in a puddle of tears.

Speaker 2:

Now, that could be a Holy Spirit moment between them, but it could be. Here's my pain and I'm just blah, you know. And then having having a team of people here's Susie, here's Johnny, and Johnny's going to be able to take you over into the next room and let's get you a, I keep, I keep laughing with my friend because the last, the last class I'm in, is community and disaster disaster response, and the answer always seems to be to help people, give them a snack. It just makes it's so funny, it's so funny to me. But, yeah, what if, uh, we had eyes in the churches I don't care how big you are, we had eyes and life groups looking for the suzies that don't share. Yeah, and walk up and and you said something so powerful. It's the pat on the back, it's the how are you? It's the those things sitting next to somebody.

Speaker 3:

so if suzy shows up and she's always sitting by herself, say anybody sitting here? What, what, yeah, why we're on the fourth Sunday she's been here.

Speaker 2:

Somebody should be moving over to sit with her and having a team of people with a heart for this to be looking for that.

Speaker 2:

That's your job.

Speaker 2:

On Sunday morning, some people greet at the front door, some people preach, some people you know, this is the body of christ, we all have gifts and so, yeah, if there's the, the teams of people regard, you know, depending on how big your church is that is trained to recognize things or is astute to.

Speaker 2:

This is the fourth time she's been here and she's sitting by herself. Um, okay, mary, you're up to go, just simply, and and look, guys, we need to use our people skills. We don't need to go say hey, suzy, I know you're up to go, just simply, and look guys, we need to use our people skills. We don't need to go say hey, susie, I know you're sitting by yourself, so here I am, sit next to her and say hi, hey, susie, anybody sitting next to you. I think the bottom line here, what this all boils down to because you've given us some very practical things to be a trauma-informed church. The bottom line is do we want to lean into the pain of other people or are we all about getting in there, doing the deed, going to life group, going to church and making our lunch reservation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah group going to church and making our lunch reservation. Yeah, bottom line, we got to care and it's the least of these that Jesus says whoever has done it unto the least of these has done it unto me, and we always think that means kids. The least of these are people who are hurting, broken, bruised. We have people walking into church. I remember Dr J as just a personal story. Every time I would go to church and I came home it would end in a domestic violence situation. We have those women come into our churches and I think that you also point out something really important about the bottom of that funnel. After we've responded in all of these ways understanding when it's way outside our lane and saying, hey, I know somebody that can help you, and then we go into a whole other conversation where they go yeah, but I can't afford that somebody that can help you. Does a trauma-informed church look like having a budget to help those people?

Speaker 3:

If you have those kinds of funds and resources in the church, it does. I also see it looking like for maybe medium-sized to bigger churches where you said you hear about it in the prayer and then they move on to. It reminds me of when I a volunteer domestic violence shelter. So sometimes the first thing is is here with us and then they get referred to something where they can get more long, long term and so maybe it is those people, like you said, on the mental health team and they, they take them someplace and they're able to hear and be able to respond and they're trained that's the education and training part of it to do so. I get that. Some of us have a passion for it. We really want to help people, but if we're not trained and not educated in how to really respond, we can do more harm than good and we're not just harming them and igniting the trauma and making that worse, we are also hurting their faith and their trust within the church and the body of Christ.

Speaker 3:

So we have to be very, very careful with that. And again, we want to be able to respond and have funds. Not all churches have that funding. So it's want to be able to respond and have funds. Not all churches have those funding, that funding. So it's going to be very crucial that if you tried all those things that I said and we come to the bottom one, that you already have it set up for where you can send people, where you can refer them out when their needs are greater than the needs of people.

Speaker 2:

And there's people like you sitting in churches, who are licensed clinical psychologists, who we can call higher and say how about some pro bono hours?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I do put plenty pro bono hours with people you know like if I'm, if I'm where you are and we don't, we don't say that for safety purposes. But if I'm in your church and we've gotten to that bottom of that funnel and we're like, okay, this is way outside of the scope of what we can do, and we say to Susie, hey, susie, dr Jackson specializes in this particular kind of trauma and this is going to take some investigation on behalf of the church to know, as you mentioned, vet these professionals to particular different types of therapy and traumas and things like that. But that's always been my heart and I hope ultimately my ministry is to be able to raise funds in my 501c3. For when somebody in the church on this mental health team says, okay, I've got Susie, susie needs some help, but Susie can't afford help, okay, here's a check from Joel 225 Ministries Send her to Dr Jackson and pay for it for as long as we need to.

Speaker 2:

This is the gospel. See, we think the gospel is just the mission field. We talk about unreached people groups. These are unreached people groups. Yes, these are people who blame God. We're lucky they're even coming to church.

Speaker 3:

Yes, like you said, it's an honor that they would even share with us. It's an honor that they would even come.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so, when they come, we have a responsibility, and I believe one day we will stand before God with what we do with that responsibility, and so many times we don't know what to do with it because we're not qualified. As you mentioned, not everybody has a doctorate degree, yeah, but there are plenty of people who do and plenty of people where we could train and some some psychological first aid that's. That's a term we use for disaster response more, but what I mean by that is triage like okay, let's find out where we are on suzy, can we send suzy to the biblical counseling lane? In my particular church, we have a biblical counseling lane. Both of them, though, are going to get their doctorate degree, so they can be board certified, which I love, but the referral part is just so, so paramount, but I think that we have to stop.

Speaker 2:

Christians have to stop saying that the church needs to do better. The church needs to do better. The church needs to do better. We are the church, yes, and if you want the church to do better in this mental health lane, do what you need to do. You know, I don't care if you're the person that sets up the chairs and the group that the newly developed group for domestic violence survivors. We are the church. We're not asking you to be the person to listen if you don't feel equipped to listen or you're not built to listen.

Speaker 2:

But, we are the church. There are things that you can do, there are ideas that you can have, there's money that you can give, there's all of these things, and so I'm so, so weary of hearing the church needs to do better. The church needs to do better, and so, as we near the end of the podcast, is this training that you just did, something that you offer all churches nationwide? And if so, they can find you at the link that I will provide in the show notes.

Speaker 3:

Yes, they can, and it is something that I'm that I had heard much about to a national audience, and so yours will be the first national audience where there's people from multiple places that it's hearing it, other than people here in my state, and so I, after speaking a couple Saturdays ago about it with a ministry group, they some of the ministers want me to come to their respective churches and train and to help them build the trauma-informed church. So I do that churches and train and to help them build the trauma-informed church. So I do that and I help people build counseling ministries too, so that they are ready for the needs of those who come through their churches too. So, whether it's in, like your big church, whether the counseling ministry is in the church or it's a smaller church, which is what I attend and we build the resources and vet them or outside of the community.

Speaker 2:

I love, I love that, and so I am definitely going to and, especially when we, when we promote this episode, I'm going to continue to say that, because that's the, that's why I wanted you on. You know, I think that this will be ultimately a lane that I fall into as well is training churches to be trauma-informed churches. I need to get this dissertation written, but I do see myself because I and you may too, but you kind of get a double-dutch bonus with me as a trauma survivor, a doc, you know, a doctoral level educated trauma survivor, who had a great experience in my church and, and, and, and and. It was very similar to what we're talking about right now, and this is what happened is.

Speaker 2:

I. I walked into a church one Sunday. I was the person that came by myself, sat by myself, left by myself, but I'm very outgoing and I knew that that was not going to be good for me, and so that following Wednesday I called that church. I said, hey, do y'all have a Bible study? They did have a Bible study. I sat down right next to the pastor's wife I didn't know his pastor's wife at the time who cares deeply for people, she leans so into people's pain and just spends so much time with people, and that started me on a journey of feeling loved, seen, known, heard, valued, loved. And later, when I had a suicide attempt, that church was a ministry to me, and so this is why I am passionate about this. I think that we have to stop expecting leaders or people with letters behind their name or receiving a paycheck from the church to be the answer to this.

Speaker 2:

We have to stop that, yeah, and so I am definitely going to put all of your information in the show notes. I'm assuming, too, you may evolve this into some sort of webinar where you can do Zoom meetings, so you don't? I mean, everybody loves to travel, but it's not always practical, especially for some of these churches.

Speaker 2:

And, as a matter of fact, I'll be speaking in June, my very first time on this, on being a trauma-informed church, and at Oak Hill Baptist Church in Waycross, georgia. If any of you guys are there, that will be on June, the 8th, and that will be my first time doing this, and so this is my passion and, like you said, not everybody is as passionate about this as we are, but we got to step up. Church member, you have to step up, and maybe it's giving your money, maybe it's you know, maybe it's your money, maybe that's all it is. Maybe you're saying to Dr J and I I can't listen to people. That's not my gift. Well, you do have something to add to this. This is everybody's responsibility. It's like raising a child. This is your village that you're in and we are called to take care of our village. Thank you for being here today.

Speaker 2:

I always give the mic to the guest at the end, and so, parting words and whatever you would have to say that maybe I've forgotten to ask you, or that you came on this podcast wanting to share. What would you say to our listeners, many of whom are going to tune in because they are leaders, and hopefully my normal listeners will step up and be like, oh, I don't have to be receiving a paycheck from the church to help people. What would you say at the end of the day as people hit end on this podcast.

Speaker 3:

To go slow. I'm always come back. So when I do therapy with people, especially when I'm terminating therapy, sometimes I always like to leave them with a couple of parting things. That was like the overarching themes of what we worked on, and in fact, I just ended sessions or therapy with one one person who I started with post high school and I'm not getting older, I'm just going to put that out there.

Speaker 3:

These kids are getting older, but not me.

Speaker 3:

They started post high school, went through high school, through the pandemic, and they're graduating from high school and going to college, and so they're going to be taking a break from therapy and then working with somebody else for the rest of their needs, for adulthood and college life.

Speaker 3:

And so I left these words with this patient to, when things get dysregulated, to always come back to focusing on the breath. That was something that we, you know, a technique we used a lot in their sessions, and for us as Christian, this is going to be like my parting word. My overall theme of what I feel like comes out of this time with talking with you, amy, future Dr Watson, is that whenever things get gray, when it gets hazy, if it seems hard, or you get that feeling and you're starting to feel annoyed because somebody feels like they're taking up too much space, and all of that, come back to what would Jesus do. That's always going to be the regulator for us as Christians, and so go slow in building it, go slow in your responses to trauma, as you see it, whatever way it shows up, but always come back to what would Jesus do, and that's never going to steer you wrong.

Speaker 2:

Right, I love that and I don't really have anything to add. Which is unusual. I love that and I don't really have anything to add. Which is unusual. Thank you for being here today.

Speaker 2:

I consider you a dear friend, a mentor a friend of this podcast, a trench mate in this world, because to love God, to love people, is a center of the mark. Yes, and so I end the podcast by declaring over you as I have now I think this is for the third time and our listeners you are seen, you are known, you are heard, you are loved and you are so, so valued. Thank you for being here today. Thank you All right listeners. Thank you so much. Please make sure, if you have a question for Dr J or me, that you just hit that button. It says send a text message and provide your Instagram handle and I will reach out to you.

Speaker 2:

In two weeks, we will be back with the trauma-informed foster parent, where Lainey Gibney will be with us, and Lainey is an old student of mine, way back in the day, and she is a foster parent and is going to talk about the importance of being a trauma-informed foster parent. I do hope that you have gleaned something from today. At the end of the day, like Dr J said, when we come upon these people who are hurting, they're broken and they're bruised, and you should be looking for them in your church what would Jesus do? See you guys in two weeks.

Speaker 1:

You make me laugh a little louder. You make me dream a little bigger. My life is so much sweeter Cause you make me. You make me better. We hold so many memories in our hearts, so close, even if we're far apart, standing On the edge of new beginnings. I can't wait to see just what you'll do. And every time I think of you, you make me laugh a little louder. You make me dream a little bigger. My life is so much sweeter Cause you make me better than I would have been without you, better than I've ever been before. I treasure every moment we're together, together, just for now. Let me tell you how. You make me laugh a little louder. You make me dream a little bigger. My life is so much sweeter because you make me breathe a little deeper. You make me feel a little stronger. My life is so much sweeter Because you make me. You make me better, you make me better you.

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Amy Watson

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